Wednesday, December 07, 2005

47. A Snippet From This Morning

I know I said I wouldn't be posting, but I just wanted to transcribe a little bit of the conversation between me and one of the counselors this morning.

Counselor: "So, just to be clear. You are at a point where you believe homosexuality is okay..."

Me: "Yes"

Counselor: "You believe that it is okay to have homosexual sex?"

Me: "Not necessarily"

Counselor: "I don't get it..."

Me: "There is a difference between orientation and behavior."

Counselor: "Ummmm..."

Me: "I have never done anything with a woman, I have not even come close."

Counselor: "But if you met a woman you would."

Me: "No... not necessarily"

Counselor: "I don't get it..."

Me: "It's the same as for heterosexuals... if you believe in waiting until marriage, just because you meet someone you like doesn't mean you can have sex with them."

Counselor: "....Oh... so... if you met a woman and fell in love with her and got married, then you would have sex..."

Me: "No... not necessarily. I don't necessarily believe that gay marriage is okay for Christians."

Counselor: "I don't get it."

Me: "There's a difference between orientation and behavior... just because I want something doesn't mean I can have it."

Counselor: "I don't get it..."


Okay, what? What doesn't she get?

Apparantly we are going to pray through issues of "sexual imprinting" that happened when the girls abused me when I was younger... cause that's why I'm gay... You know, I was afraid that the gay thing would derail this whole process, and it seems like that is going to happen.

But... again, God... I submit this to You. Your will be done, Your kingdom come in my life.

61 Comments:

yes2truth said...

Hello Confused,

Do you mind if I say I'm not surprised you're confused. The title or identity you give yourself is what is confusing you.

You cannot be Christian and by that I mean Born Again and gay, it is not possible. All you have to do is take on your new identity i.e daughter of God; child of God; sister of Our Lord Jesus Christ and Royal Priest and this will involve confessing that being gay is a sin. If you continue to not accept that being gay is a sin you will remain confused.

You will notice the absence of the word 'gay' in these new titles which are now yours.

Many homosexuals struggle with repentance because they are not taught the above. They see themselves as homosexuals and Christian, instead of Christian or Born Again with a homosexuality problem that Our Lord will enable them to overcome.

I do hope this helps.

Have a read of my blogs on Grace and repetitive confession of sins

http://graceforfreedom.blogspot.com/

http://www.confessionofsins.blogspot.com/

TL said...

Hey - I'm interested in what's going on with you, and I really do wish you the best. You deserve to be happy, gay or straight, with or without a "partner."

TL said...

Hey - I'm interested in what's going on with you, and I really do wish you the best. You deserve to be happy, gay or straight, with or without a "partner."

JJ said...

yes2truth

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you. I do not think that there is anything impossible about being gay and Christian... there are many of us out there. I don't think the Bible can be said to condemn people for merely being one thing or another. I am in the midst of trying to figure out whether or not "homosexual behavior" (however that would be defined) would be a sin, but the fact of the matter is that there are many people (more than you probably know, and probably some who go to your church), who cannot help being what they are but who love Christ and put Him first in their lives.

Topher

Thanks for your encouragement, and for stopping by.

Transatlantic Girl said...

I am so not looking forward to coming out.

I'm getting exhausted just reading the constant explanations of yourself you are asked to make; the same tedious questions and accusations over and over again. Honestly, I think you have the patience of a saint to handle this with the politeness and good sense you have used repeatedly. I think I would freak out and start throwing things after the first, say, twenty times.

I hope something positive comes out of this weekend for you. The last sentences in your post certainly show that you've gone into this with the right mindset. I will pray for you.

Liadan said...

Maybe it would help to stop for a minute and tell the counselor exactly how you're using certain terms like "homosexuality" (you'd probably be using it to refer to a sexual/affectional orientation), and what you do and don't already believe (orientation = not a sin, related behavior = uncertain, etc.) It sounds like she doesn't "get it' because you're talking about two different things.

My therapist did the "Ah, so SEX SEX SEX" thing too, and it annoyed me until I explained that I had the exact same standards and expectations that I would were I straight: to find a (hopefully) lifelong partner and settle into a committed, monogamous relationship exactly like your run-of-the-mill hetero marriage, including sex but not focused or based on it.

Willie Hewes said...

She just doesn't get it. *shrug*
I guess you're gonna have to go even further back and start with basic principles, explain what 'orientation' actually is, explain about the biological causes... blah!

I'm with Transatlantic Girl as well, you must feel really flippin tired sometimes. Anyway, hang in there, even if you end up counselling them more than they you, the excercise may not have been pointless.

Boo said...

One of the foundations of the entire anti-gay/exgay ideology is denying the distinction between behavior and identity/orientation. In their minds, it's like you're saying you're an alcoholic but you've never had a drink.

I don't really know enough about the whole situation to offer a professional opinion, but from what you've posted it sounds an awful lot like this experience is going to be all about the counselor's agenda, not yours. That's sort of a big no-no in therapeutic circles.

Oh, and yes2truth, I'd think veerrryyy long and hard before making claims about what is possible or not possible in God's name.

Jon said...

First time to visit your blog here and you've got the wheels in my brain spinning a bit. Haven't really thought about the orientation vs. behavior issue ever. I would have grown up thinking in very black and white terms and would have called homosexuality a sin in whatever terms (just to let you know where I'm coming from).

I read Yes2Truth's response to you and quickly disagreed with them. Even though I think the Bible is fairly clear in saying that homosexual behavior is a sin, I also think being a liar is wrong, being an alcoholic is wrong, being an adulterer is wrong...the list goes on. God doesn't ask us to purge ourselves of all sin BEFORE we come to him. He is in the business of purifying us from all the crap in our lives on our way to heaven. The conclusion of that thought is just that sinners can of course be Christians. In fact, all Christians should realize that the people next to them in the pews are completely wrecked in some area of their lives, that's why we all need Jesus so badly.

Anyway, before I get too long winded here, thanks so much for being honest about your journey and I hope you are able to find the peace and understanding that you are searching for.

yes2truth said...

Hi JJ,

I will only answer your comments and hopefully the others will learn from what I say to you. As expected, no one has understood what I have said. Jesus did not come to condemn anyone and nor do I, but if you profess to be a True Believer and make excuses for your lifestyle instead of confessing it as sinful then I must confront you with it.

I will repeat it for you - it is impossible to be Born Again and gay. You can be Born Again with a gay problem which The Lord will help you overcome in time, but you must admit it is sinful. Either the Truth is in you or He, The Truth, is not in you. 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

The above verses have nothing to do with ceasing from sin because we all sin - 1 John 1 is not about sins it is all about ATTITUDE to sins.

The fact that there are many like you out there is neither here nor there. MANY will come to Our Lord saying I did this and that in your name and He will say to them "go away from me, I do not know you." Now these people have to be 'Christians' or people making out they are Christians because they doing things in His name. Now I am not saying you are one of these people, but if you continue to deny that same gender sexual relationships are sinful when Scripture is quite clear about it then you have no excuse.

Romans 1:26 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet (Aids).

I hope this helps you JJ for it is the only way.

y2t

Boo said...

"As expected, no one has understood what I have said."

No, we understood you fine. You seem to have completely misunderstood JJ tho if you're still harping about her "lifestyle."

"And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet (Aids)."

Indeed. God is wiping out Africa to send a message to American homosexuals. God's aim is often quite poor, like when He wanted to smite the evil New Orleans homosexuals and missed and wiped out the poor black quarter instead. We gays just make God so angry He loses control of His smiting ability.

"MANY will come to Our Lord saying I did this and that in your name and He will say to them "go away from me, I do not know you.""

Something else you might want to think long and hard about.

yes2truth said...

I have not misunderstood JJ I quote "I do not think that there is anything impossible about being gay and Christian... there are many of us out there."

No, man's sinful activities cause his difficulties and problems not God.

If you live in a low lying swamp you must expect to get flooded periodically again that is man's stupidity for living in the wrong place.

If you have sex with monkeys which certain African males do then you must expect vile diseases to afflict you.

It's all cause and effect and your emotional outpourings will not change this.

y2t

Angel said...

Y2T, You don't speak for all Christians, and you don't speak for God. I am a straight, married, Christian female, and it angers me when people use hate speech "in the name of God".

(((JJ)))) Not all counselors are created equal, as you've shown : / You do have the patience of a saint! Hang in there!!

Boo said...

"I have not misunderstood JJ I quote "I do not think that there is anything impossible about being gay and Christian... there are many of us out there.""

You said

"Jesus did not come to condemn anyone and nor do I, but if you profess to be a True Believer and make excuses for your lifestyle instead of confessing it as sinful then I must confront you with it."

JJ's lifestyle is chastity. Do you believe chastity is something one needs to confess as sinful?

"If you live in a low lying swamp you must expect to get flooded periodically again that is man's stupidity for living in the wrong place."

Indeed, those people were very stupid to be born poor and in New Orleans. That choice certainly came back to haunt them.

"If you have sex with monkeys which certain African males do then you must expect vile diseases to afflict you."

Thus explaining why no African women have AIDS, and no children are ever born with it. And why only African men who have had sex with monkeys have it. And why God never said it rains on the just and unjust alike... oh wait...

JJ said...

Jon

Welcome, and don't let people like Yes2Truth scare you, I honestly don't know what to make of that guy/girl. I am open to having discussions with all sorts of people, as long as they don't end up resorting to hateful rhetoric like some people (*cough*Yes2Truth*cough)

...heh, I guess I don't have the patience of a saint.

Yes2Truth,

I think you need to do some reading on my blog (particullarily this post before you go commenting on things like my "lifestyle". As Boo mentioned, I am celibate... I have never dated a woman, never kissed a woman, never done anything I think you would define as sinful. I have merely admitted the truth of what I am... I am attracted to women, I am attracted to the same sex. I am gay. If that is a sin, then you are saying that temptation is sin, and if that is the case then Christ Himself apparantly sinned, because He was tempted in every way, and I don't think you would say that. Now if you are going to assume that my attractions are lust, then I think you are making crazy assumptions about a person you have never met, my thoughts about women are no more lustful than any straight woman's thoughts would be about men... sometimes they are, but most of the time they are not. And when they are lustful, I confess and repent and Christ forgives me.

Boo and Angel, thanks for coming to my defense. Honestly, some of what Yes2Truth said is really ridiculous. AIDS is not God's judgement on gay people, any more than Herpes is God's judgement on straight people. I don't know if they realize how hateful some of that ridiculous stuff they said is. AIDS is affecting the entire planet, most of the people on earth who have it are heterosexual people who have never had sex with monkeys... honestly, what is wrong with people?

Transatlantic Girl, not everyone is like Yes2Truth, most are like Boo, Angel, even Jon (who I have never heard from before, but who seems willing to discuss, and even if he believes I am sinning by being gay, he respects me and my journey). Not that I'm saying you have to come out... if you listen to me on the fake radio (the November 25, 2005 one) I talk about my fear of having to explain myself over and over again. It's not fun.

Oh, and just to let Boo and Angel know, the counseling has not all been about being gay, it just seemed like it would yesterday morning. It came up a bit this morning, when she decided that believing that being gay was acceptable to God was an ungodly belief, and made me confess it... but I decided to just let that slide off of my back because the rest of it has been good. I'm exhausted now though, I know why counseling appointments don't usually go for days at at time... I'm worn out, and I still have one more day to go.

yes2truth said...

Show me where I am showing hatred?
What I am telling you is the Truth, if that offends you then The Truth is not in you.

If you are not able to accept the fact that man has only himself to blame for all this world's problems then your understanding of the nature of God is poor if not non-existent.

y2t

JJ said...

First of all, I would say that saying that AIDS is the punishment of God on gay people is hateful... not to mention untrue. If it was designed to punish gay people then it was poorly designed, because not only has it effected mostly straight people world wide, it manages to sidestep pretty much all lesbians (seriously, were I to be sexually active, I would be safer from most STDs than my straight friends... so I cannot see how that argument makes sense... it is based in nothing but homophobia).

Secondly, insisting that I cannot be a Christian and be gay, I feel is even more hateful. I admit to being particularly sensitive in this area, because that belief had me feeling doomed, abandoned by God, severely depressed and very near suicidal... even before I had come to a place of admitting that I was gay. While I was still insisting I was straight, that being gay was evil, something in me knew the truth... that I was gay, and so it led me very close to the edge... and when people say things like "You cannot be Born Again and be gay", it takes me back there in my head. You should know that, while I have come to a place where I am secure in God's love for me, and His acceptance of me as I am, and His promise of salvation for me (despite what some Christians say), there are many young, gay Christians who are not... and there are many cases where young, gay Christians have been driven to suicide because people have said things to them like you said to me in your comments. I have read of conservative Christian leaders even say that these kids who killed themselves did the right thing, because it is better to die than to be gay... and while you definetely did not say anything as extreme as that, what you did say was in the same vein.

Jon said...

Really interesting discussion here that is challenging my thinking. I've never really differentiated the sense of feeling gay with the acting out of a gay lifestyle (hope those words are describing what I'm thinking adequately?). I guess I've always assumed that someone who describes themselves as gay would inherently act in that manner. I realize that you are saying that you don't do this yet still wrestle with being gay.

You mentioned what I said about 'homosexual behavior is a sin'. I suppose I'm trying to differentiate the act of an actual sin with a person's propensity toward that sin.

Well, you've got me thinking a lot. I do get a bit bothered when I hear Christians that want to personally limit the extent of Christ's love based on the actions of people. I appreciate this conversation realizing that this 'discussion' for me is real life for you. Many more thoughts but I've got a two year old pulling on my hand for apple juice and a one year old waking up. Guess I'm needed outside the world of blogs...

JJ said...

Jon and Yes2Truth, I would recommend to both of you (not that I think of you as the same at all, but because I think that this is a good place to begin) to either read the chapter on homosexuality in Tony Campolo's book 20 Hot Potatoes Christians are Afraid to Touch which I link to on the right hand side of this page, or listen to a talk he gave on this issue to a group of pastors(Struggling With the Gay Issue) He is a conservative on the issue, but he manages to be conservative without ever being homophobic or hateful... in fact, I find him quite compassionate, and very much showing the grace and love of Christ.

Boo said...

You've really gotta love the mindset people like y2t bring to these kinds of discussions. He can spew all the nasty things he wants, but you can't call him on it, because it's all God's Truth. If you take issue with him you're really taking issue with God.

That's right y2t, God's the one who's really being hateful and nasty, not you. That's really going to fly when you stand before Him.

yes2truth said...

JJ,

You are still misunderstanding what I am saying. It is not about being gay it is about confessing that being gay is sinful. He will accept you as you are with your gay problem as long as you have acknowledged it as a problem. That is what I have said.

But what I am getting from this blog in general is emotional misunderstanding and excuses in order to continue this way. Do you not know that fornicators will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If fornicators will not inherit why should God make a special dispensation for sexual perversion?

If you read Corinthians you will read a story of an incestuous relationship which involved that man being put out of the church. What angered Paul more though was that many in that church were making light of it and laughing about it. Again we have this wrong attitude to sin not the sin itself.

I hope you are beginning to understand.

y2t

yes2truth said...

PS,

I do not need Tony whatever his name is to teach me about sin only The Holy Scriptures.

Thanks but no thanks.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Boo said...

Yea JJ, when I calleth you a fornicator and a sexual pervert, when I compare you to someone committing incest, it is not hatred which moveth me, rather it is love... yes... that is'th the ticket... love...

You still do not understand JJ, for your chastity is fornication, for I doth sayeth so. Whatever I doth sayeth about God goeth, for I hath interpreted an isolated verse to sayeth so. Thus when I read Bible passages which sayeth "Judas went out and hanged himself." and "Go thou and do likewise." I realizeth it is God's commandment to suicide, because I hath determined that I wish to believe it so. But none of this is me, no, it is all The Truth, and to disagree with me is to blaspheme against The Truth. Thus will I renameth myself yes2me. Amen.

JJ said...

Yes2Truth

Okay, I think this is my last attempt, and then I will just let you be. A fornicator is one who has actually fornicated, incest involves an actual sexual act between relations... being gay means that I have desires, it does not mean that I have commited any actions that would be defined as sin. In actual fact, I have never done anything remotely gay, ever. So, I cannot be put in the same category as a fornicator (one who has commited fornication), or a person who has commited an incestuous act... I have not committed anything. Telling me to simply change my label would be like me telling one of my best friends who happens to have been born blind (something I think most of us would agree is outside of God's perfect will for us, God desires us to be in health), telling her to no longer call herself blind or visually impaired... She now needs to refer to herself as a Seeing Person with a Blindness Problem... it's semantics, and it's ridiculous. Jesus never asked anyone he dealt with to pretend that they were something that they weren't. I don't think He would ask that of me either.

The reason I recommended Tony Campolo to you and to Jon is because he is a Baptist, conservative pastor who most evangelical Christians have heard of. He does not believe that homosexual behavior is okay, he believes it is sinful, I am not trying to get you to listen to a guy who is liberal, I'm just trying to show you how someone can have a conservative viewpoint and still show God's grace.

Okay, that's it. I think that is my last attempt.

Boo

Heehee...

I think I have to change the name of my blog because it gives people the wrong impression. I am horrible at titling things, it is the hardest part of most of my blog entries, actually. I remember sitting and trying to figure out what to call this blog, and I just gave up and typed something in that I thought would let people know where I was in my life, but too many people take it the wrong way. I am not confused about being a Christian, I am not confused about being gay... I'm not even so much confused, I'm just trying to figure out how to live my life to God's glory in the midst of being who I am. Can you think of a title?

Boo said...

How about "Yummy Cookies"

Everyone likes yummy cookies.

Boo said...

Btw, check my blog again if you want to know what puddins are.

E said...

yes2truth said:
I do not need Tony whatever his name is to teach me about sin only The Holy Scriptures.

So in other words, you don't ever need to listen to anything that anyone else says, because you've "got the Bible" and your interpretation of what it says is flawless?

Wow. Just wow.

Elizabeth said...

Y2T,

I'm sorry but your hatred in the name of God is an insult to God and all that he teaches. The only person who isn't a Christian is you.

JJ,

I just have one question, are you saying you're never going to have a relationship with a woman, or are you more or less talking about not having sex outside of marriage/long-term relationship? I appologize if this has already been asked. I had to skip most of the comments because of Y2T.

Angel said...

Boo, I am LOL here, you rock ;)

JJ, how about come up with some titles and let us vote? It will give you material for another blog post ;)

And honestly, day after day of sessions, unless in a crisis intervention, sounds like it is *supposed* to wear you out (which isn't good).

Sending more good thougts and prayers!

Oh and Y2K, I used to be an ignorant, narrow-minded bigot, but GOD moved my heart to love, accept, and defend Christians like JJ. I'm done with you too (too bad there are not filters on blogs).

yes2truth said...

I find this unbelievable because you are still not getting it.

Desires are still sin that is why Our Lord said if a man lusts after another man's wife he has already committed adultery with her even though there has been no act. He didn't say this to condemn any man He said it to show how weak men are in this area and therefore need His saving Grace. If a man confesses this weakness to Him He will forgive him and then deliver him from further temptation.

I will get back to the topic of identity - our new identity in Him - Born Again - Child of God etc. These are our new titles. We are now new creatures the old person is dead; it died in the watery grave of baptism and was raised anew taking on His life through His resurrection as new people. We cannot now be recognised nor identified by any label that applies to our former life IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

I once had a discussion with this individual who saw himself as a 'redeemed sinner' and I told him pretty well what I am telling you people. It's impossible to be a redeemed sinner - you are either redeemed or you are a sinner you cannot be both. You see he could not let go of his former identity he forever wanted to remind himself of his former life. He couldn't understand that Our Father in heaven had forgiven him and forgotten his sins - wiped out!!

Now this scenario also applies to JJ - she sees herself as gay when Our Father and the Lord Jesus do not. This is why the identity thing is so important and why I said it is impossible to be Born Again and gay.

Now do you understand for I cannot make it any plainer!?

y2t

TL said...

"It's impossible to be a redeemed sinner - you are either redeemed or you are a sinner you cannot be both."

y2t: What is going on in your head? Does that actually make sense to you?

JJ, you are a brave woman. Please tell me you don't have to deal with this type of rationale every day.

Hope you're headed to a couple days of rest.

-Topher

Anonymous said...

JJ,

I wish this was not such a difficult choice in your life. I've had very few partners in my life but without even meeting you, I'd like to give you the biggest kiss!! Right on the lips!! If you spend your entire life worrying about what God "might" think....you're going to be pretty upset at the end of it. What if you find yourself in his presence and he says "Geeez, Jenny......I just wanted you to be happy, kiss girls, its okay!"

Anwyays, all I'm saying is, don't spend your life debating, enjoy your life!! I have a feeling you're a really genuine and caring person. Thats all God or anyone can ask for, so enjoy your life, whoever that may be with. I highly doubt God will say..."Despite the fact you've spent your life caring for others, being honest, and striving for greatness, you kissed a girl....to hell with you. Please!!! You deserve to be happy! Don't let to be so complicated!

Elizabeth said...

Y2t,

Pardon, but are we all or are we not all sinners?

Did Jesus or did he not die for our sins?

Did he or did he not tell us not to judge?

The answers are yes we are all sinners, yes he did, and he told us not to judge.

You, my friend, need to remember that the next time you open your mouth. Don't make me flood you with bible quotes supporting my above statements. ;)

yes2truth said...

I boast in Him and in no one else and I tell you The Truth.

If you believe you are still a sinner then you are not saved, for sinners cannot enter The Kingdom of God. If you believe you are a still a sinner then you do not understand Grace. If you believe you are a sinner you do not understand that it was ALL DONE at the cross for those who believe.

You can add nothing to what Jesus Christ has done for us if you believe and grow in Grace and Faith.

y2t

Anonymous said...

Just a comment to all, especially Y2T....while debating can be entertaining and a productive means of learning....you all are just going to have to agree to disagree. Y2T believes he's found the "true path" as have some others. But WHY is there such a need to push your beliefs onto others....Why not say "Here's my take on this issue" or "My interpretation is..." because now you're all just arguing!

Having said that, I "believe" (but I don't know for certain as I haven't met the guy)....but I betcha God can't stand a know-it-all. That's all folks!

yes2truth said...

Hello anonymous,

Yes he can stand it - he loves a 'know it all' but only when that know it all is telling The Truth. You see this type of know it all only speaks with The Lord's authority. If we are True Believers we can speak in no other way. For Jesus Christ is The Way.

Unfortunately when that know it all is full of intellectual religious clap trap and makes The Word of God to none effect, He hates it. Hence we have today in this age the Church that is known Biblically as Laodacea in Revelation 3 and unless these Laodaceans repent of their liberal libertine activities, attitude to sins and views then God is going to spew them out of His mouth. Now in reality I would imagine that that is not going to be a very pleasant experience.

Read it for yourself Mr Anonymous.

y2t

PS I don't argue I tell it like it is and then what I say is either received or rejected.

Anonymous said...

Y2T,

1. I'm not a male.

2. You're not telling it as it is, you're giving your opinion and thats all. To which you have every right.

3. If you truely believe that you have everything figured out, you're ten different kinds of crazy. Not the type the crazy that involves wearing a snowsuit in summer, much worse. I hope you don't have to much influence on the people around you.

JJ said...

Hmmm, I think what's going on here is that Yes2Truth and I (and apparantly all of you as well) have a rather foundational doctrinal difference of opinion... or it may still be semantics... or a bit of both. My primary identity is as a Christian, one who has been redeemed by Christ. I know that, I believe that. And I do believe that as a Christian I should strive for holiness (and as a pseudo Wesleyan I believe that holiness is achievable in this lifetime... I just also believe, or accept the fact, that it is very rare.) I just know that I still sin (and hence, am a sinner), and still need to constantly go to Christ for forgiveness. I also know that I am attracted to girls (and hence, am gay). That is not my primary identity, but it is still true. And I don't think a change in my semantics makes much of a difference to Christ. Y2T may disagree.

Of course, there could be something more going on... I have heard of denominations who believe that Christians don't sin -- which has one of 2 consequences -- people either believe that nothing they do is sin, no matter what they do and what the Bible says about it; or they leave the Church because (like Paul) they still struggle with sin and they think that means that they are not a Christian... are doomed. I, personally, find this to be a bit of a dangerous theology, but I do not pretend to speak for all Christendom.

I would just add, that there are Bible references where Christians are referred to as sinners: Galatians 2:17 and 1 Timothy, 1:15 for example.

Elizabeth,

I have still not come to a conclusion on the whole "is homosexual behavior (ie: sexual relations between people of the same gender) a sin" issue. I've had a bit of a paradigm shift recently, which is still too fresh to write about, but I'm still working on it. Were I to come down in favour of gay relationships, I would definetely be a "waiting until marriage" girl, the same as if I were straight.

...anyway, I am back from my counseling week, but not ready to write an entire blog entry about it yet. Maybe I'll spend the next little while just thinking up new names for my blog... Really, I do suck at that. I might just end up going with Yummy Cookies!

Boo said...

"Y2T,
I'm sorry but your hatred in the name of God is an insult to God and all that he teaches. The only person who isn't a Christian is you."

I think that last sentence was going a lil too far, Elizabeth. It's sort of the same problem everyone else is having with y2t. How things stand between y2t and God is between yt2 and God.

"What if you find yourself in his presence and he says "Geeez, Jenny......I just wanted you to be happy, kiss girls, its okay!"

How do you know her name isn't JoJo? Or Juniper Jane? That would be a really kewl name.

"I will get back to the topic of identity - our new identity in Him - Born Again - Child of God etc. These are our new titles. We are now new creatures the old person is dead; it died in the watery grave of baptism and was raised anew taking on His life through His resurrection as new people. We cannot now be recognised nor identified by any label that applies to our former life IT IS IMPOSSIBLE."

I see y2t, so you are no longer male (better get that label off your profile), you are no longer human, you are no longer carbon-based, and you are no longer an earthling. I guess the rest of us just have a hard time following the different sort of logic used by the silicon-based asexuals of planet Weebo.

Being serious for a second if there's any hope of reaching you, if we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us. I'm sure I read that somewhere. In Jesus's day, there were many people who thought they had The Truth and that God had made them holier than everyone else and they were without sin. They were called Pharisees, and Our Lord had a bit of a beef with them. Something about them being whitewashed tombs or somesuch.

Now, since Juniper is currently unsure as to whether or not acting on her desires must always be intrinsically sinful (recent paradigm shifts notwithstanding) she is taking what is therefore the most sensible and God-fearing route: she is refraining from acting on them. Ergo, when she stands before God if God says "Gay sex is always wrong!" she can say "Well, I figured it might be, but I wasn't sure, so I just didn't do it." The difference with the unbelieving churchs described in the Bible is that they just didn't care so they let it all hang out. Salvation is not a matter of the intellect. If she doesn't know then she doesn't know and there's no point in her saying something she doesn't believe. It's not like God's going to be fooled.

"I've had very few partners in my life but without even meeting you, I'd like to give you the biggest kiss!! Right on the lips!!"

Hey, I saw her first anon! ;-)

Anonymous said...

Hey Boo,

I suppose you could call her JoJo or Juniper Jane; I called her Jenny cause that's her name.

I would; however, like to say I haven't a single problem with Y2T. I can see how many uber-religious folk would have a problem with Mr.Y2T....but I find him incredibly entertaining. Can you imagine... such persistence, it's fantastic. He probably bangs his head against the hood of his car every night because of us naive simpletons. The Honda or Toyota indentation must create a great deal of attention as he preaches on street corners. Geeezzz...I'm just kidding.

JJ said...

""I've had very few partners in my life but without even meeting you, I'd like to give you the biggest kiss!! Right on the lips!!"

Hey, I saw her first anon! ;-)"


My my! *fans self in style of Southern Belle* I do declare, ladies, no need to fight on my account... unless there is some sort of mud pit, or perhaps some oils involved... maybe jello...

Oh dear... now I've given Y2T something real to condemn me for. Actually, just so you know, I'm not sure what the appeal of women fighting in some sort of sticky substance is... I think that might be a guy thing.

I suppose you could call her JoJo or Juniper Jane; I called her Jenny cause that's her name.

heh... I suppose I gave up my right to complete anonymity when I went on the fake radio.

Eric said...

Wow JJ (or should i now be calling you Juniper Jane? oy!), i get sick for a week and miss out on all this fun and drama!

Seriously, I find Boo absolutely hysterical!

I wasn't planning on commenting on Y2T but the thing that bugs me at times on this journey of ours is coming across people who have this stupid assumption that attraction = lust. I never did catch whether or not Y2T was a guy or a girl but i'm kind of figuring that maybe he/she is asexual or blind because imagine what would happen if he/she was walking down the street and saw an attractive person. Now that'd be a sin not even grace could cover!

Yes2Truth - just a question for ya. Do you believe in resurrection? The reason I ask is because I just wanted to picture in my mind if you are a Pharisee or a Sadducee.

Jon said,"I appreciate this conversation realizing that this 'discussion' for me is real life for you."

I really appreciated this realization because sometimes it feels like having this discussion is merely academic for a straight person when it's very much a struggle and journey that we have to live with. Being in the closet tends to have a muzzling feeling and so it's validating to have someone hear our cries and shouts.

Angel - you rock. that's all.

JJ- I'd be interested to hear more about this paradigm shift that you're processing. (What's going on in that beautiful lil head of yours?) =)

Oh, should I change the link from my blog to yours to "Yummy Cookies"? Let me know cuz i'll update it right away!

Love ya!
Eric
TWC

Eric said...

JJ said, "Actually, just so you know, I'm not sure what the appeal of women fighting in some sort of sticky substance is... I think that might be a guy thing."

Me neither! What is the appeal of that anyway?

hehe...
Eric

Anonymous said...

Hey Boo....meet you at the monkey bars after school in the rain, it's on.
Hmmm....myself and Boo in a mud or jello pit. Well I've never been a fighter, I'm sure I'd get my butt kicked. And considering Boo's somewhere in the great ole' US of A and I'm in Ottawa, that'd create some difficulty.

JJ said...

Anonymous

Ottawa? Do I know you?

Anonymous said...

Nope, you don't know me.

JJ said...

Wow... Ottawa is not that big. Crazy that you found my blog. How did that happen?

Anonymous said...

I don't recall how I stumbled across your blog. Though I had been reading it for a while before I even noticed you were in Ottawa too.

I spoke to you about that before. I mentioned you should check out the United Church down the street from your house (on AltaVista)...my friend is a lesbian minister there.

JJ said...

Oh, right, that was you. Sorry, kind of hard to follow... I get a variety of Anonymouses. :)

I don't know if I'll get a chance to check that church out before I go to Korea. I did look it up online, but with Christmas coming up, and with the work I do at my church with the kids, there just aren't services I can really miss. I really do want to give it a try though, maybe meet this woman. She's an intern, right? (if I remember from the church's webpage correctly)

Anonymous said...

Not an intern, though her position isn't of a permanent nature at the moment. She's hired until the fall of 2006 I believe.

I've actually been meaning to sit in on a sermon of hers. I too live pretty close to that church.

JJ said...

Is she preaching anytime soon? Maybe I could sneak out of one of my services... or go to an early service at one church and a late one at the other -- that would be a lot of church for one day, cause I'd also be going to the evening service at my home church.

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure when she's preaching next. I'll give her a call today and get back to you. If you like, you can email me at boudreau.kak@forces.gc.ca

Dorothy said...

Oh sweetie, my heart aches for what you are enduring. But you are enduring and have not been immoral, no matter what Y2T says. Inclinations are temptations, temptations are not a sin unless you submit yourself to them. It is the choice to choose darkness over light that is the sin, not the observance of both light and dark. My mother is bi, although a practicing heterosexual and married to a man, she still has the inclination that she doesn't feed through her abstinence. She instead clings to the light, knowing that one day, this trial will be over and she will no longer ache in suffering. We all have trials and inclinations that are unbelievably hard for us. My past as a survivor of child rape and years of abuse, compounded by betrayal of a husband who molested children, the heartbreak of raising my children alone, which is never what I intended or wanted, but what I was given, so that Heavenly Father could teach me how to overcome. And I have. It isn't always easy when you have something that eats at you, but don't answer that with guilt. DO NOT LET YOURSELF BE BEATEN DOWN BECAUSE YOU FEEL GUILT OVER AN INCLINATION. Find strength and courage to battle it. It may mean a life of celebacy, but think of the power you will have having not surrendered to the cunning of the Adversary. Walk by faith, sweetie. I ache for your pain and hope you will find rest from it soon. Do not walk faster than you have strength. The name of my blog is "All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, and Shall Be For Thy Good. It is a scripture that I love and hold close. The following verse is sacred to me..."The Son of Man hath descended below them all...art thou greater than He? Therefore, hold on thy way...thy days are known and cannot be numbered less.

Remember that in Gethsemane, Jesus Christ felt all of the pains of the world, not just sin, but all pain due to actions of others, our own torment at our choices, and even the sorrow at things beyond our control. He has experienced exactly what you are feeling, the way you are feeling it, and knows your sorrow. He is not some distant being demanding impossible excellence, but a loving Older Brother, who, under direction from your Father in Heaven has ransomed you in every way, and can comfort you. When you pray, ask for that comfort he promises in John 15. Remember that prayer is by definition: The act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Prayer is a form of work, and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings. As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are his children) then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part.

Wishing you all the best on your journey. Here if you need me. Come sit by me and be not cast down in sorrow, but have joy and rejoicing. You must have been one strong spirit in our premortal home to have received such a powerful trial during this our time of probation. One of my favorite quotes is "I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it." May you have the strength to endure and have your heart's desire of peace and comfort.

E said...

My my! *fans self in style of Southern Belle* I do declare, ladies, no need to fight on my account... unless there is some sort of mud pit, or perhaps some oils involved... maybe jello...


Figures I'd come across a comment like this right after reading a discussion about Brokeback Mountain. Now I've got 15 minutes before staff meeting to get that picture of Jake and Heath out of my head... :p

JJ said...

E

"Now I've got 15 minutes before staff meeting to get that picture of Jake and Heath out of my head... :p"

...heh, sorry.

But again, I still don't get the appeal of ladies (or I guess fellows) fighting in sticky substances. How is that hot? They slide around and get all dirty, and sticky and... oh... I think I get it. heh.

Still don't think it's my cup of tea, though.

Sallwood

Wow. Yeah, I have to say that reading your comment makes me realize that as frustrated as I may be, there are those whose lives make this journey of mine look like a cakewalk. God is faithful, and I'm so glad to hear that His faithfulness has sustained you. Thanks for your comments.

Boo said...

"But again, I still don't get the appeal of ladies (or I guess fellows) fighting in sticky substances. How is that hot? They slide around and get all dirty, and sticky and... oh... I think I get it. heh."

Seinfeld explained it one time. Guys apparently figure if two women are grappling close together, there's a chance they might somehow kiss.

"Hey Boo....meet you at the monkey bars after school in the rain, it's on.
Hmmm....myself and Boo in a mud or jello pit. Well I've never been a fighter, I'm sure I'd get my butt kicked. And considering Boo's somewhere in the great ole' US of A and I'm in Ottawa, that'd create some difficulty."

We can meet at Niagara Falls for wet tshirt wrestling. Proceeds to benefit Hurricane Relief.

JJ said...

"We can meet at Niagara Falls for wet tshirt wrestling. Proceeds to benefit Hurricane Relief.

I... I... I'm speechless.

Seinfeld explained it one time. Guys apparently figure if two women are grappling close together, there's a chance they might somehow kiss.

Did you ever see the movie Wild Things? I do not recommend it, unless you are wanting to see a bad movie (which can sometimes be fun). But there is a scene in that movie where two girls are fighting and in the middle of it they start making out. I saw the movie in theatres (I know!) and Iburst out laughing when that happened (got shushed by some people)... I thought it was the most ridiculous thing I'd ever seen... but I guess it must be a guy fantasy. Weird. Men are weird.

Boo said...

"I guess it must be a guy fantasy. Weird. Men are weird."

Well, yes they are. but they're also practical. Men think if one woman is good two must be better.

I've been disappointed Neve Campbell's career seems to have tanked. I liked her. Denise Richards is a skank. Wasn't she with Charlie Sheen? Talk about expecting to get vile diseases...

JJ said...

Neve Campbell and Denise Richards... holy crap! I'd actually forgotten who was in that movie. I only really remember that scene, cause I found it so funny. I think they made a sequel too, which is shocking.

Men think if one woman is good two must be better.

...heh, yeah, I guess that must be the thinking. I still don't get the 'catfight' fetish thing, though.

Jessica said...

I am trying to understand that, too! Omgsh, this is so totally an answer to my prayers, I just can't believe it. Try to find that scripture about the eunuchs. I think it will help your counselor understand what you were saying about how God created you gay, but (and like you, I'm still asking for god's revelation on this next part), it's for his service and not necessarily for you to act out on your feelings. She still might not get it. I mean, you basically said all of that and she didn't get it. It seems very clear to me. There are lots of things we CAN do. As a matter of fact, Paul says that we could do pretty much anything we want, but is it expedient? And, when you think about it, Christians could go bar hopping and doing really anything. I mean, heck, I could go run naked through the park, because I'm sanctified, but just because I'm saved, doesn't mean that God WANTS me to go running through the park naked. I could do it and it wouldn't be a sin, but is it expedient? Does it serve God in anyway? Gosh, I jsut hope my daughter is as good of a girl as you are when she grows up, JJ. I think you're doing the right thing in waiting for God's answer on this, and in waiting to have sex until after marriage. Your life is definately pleasing God, I'm so sure of that. Keep it up. I want to encourage you on that. I was raised a good Christian girl, but I did get off track and had sex before I was married and if I could do it all over again, I wouldn't have done that. I don't necessarily regret the act, but I do regret that it didn't please God and in htat part of my life I wasn't obedient to him, when I try very hard to please him all the time. So, keep it up. You're doing good, girlfriend. :)

pete said...

Hey JJ,

Sorry I have only read this post, and only some comments at the top. I'm so glad that there are real Christians who are talking about homosexuality rationally, and I'm so glad I found your blog!

This morning I was struck by www.godhatesfags.com - such a disgusting website, i could only describe that church as a sect. (For the record I am heterosexual male, and I live in Australia, 17 years old). Anyway, I love the point you make about orientation versus behaviour. To be very general I think homosexuality is just more to do with the fact that our bodies are mortal. It's another stumbling block, and as a heterosexual I can identify because I am oriented towards thinking lustful thoughts of women. It's also like having a body that tends to get tired after a while and needs sleep, in that it is an oppurtunity to glorify God! How glad God is every time you overcome temptation!!!

James 1:2-4 "Consider it pure joy my brothers (and sisters!) whenever you face trials of many kinds. You know that the testing of your faith develops perseverence, and perseverance must finish it's work so you may become mature and complete, not lacking anything."

Sorry if that is not entirely word-for-word, it comes from memory. What a trial you have, and what an opportunity to glorify God! Bless you JJ, God loves you so much and he is so pleased with you! Anyway I'm going to point people towards your blog, because homosexuality is an obstacle for many people considering meeting their maker before they have to!

Your work on this blog will be fruitful, pray without ceasing and meditate on the word, and cloth yourself in God's complete armour as in Ephesians 6.

God Bless,

Peter