Friday, September 23, 2005

22. "Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin"

As part of my internet routine, I always check out a few other blogs – one of which is Eric’s Two World Collision.  Yesterday’s entry, Scrubbing off Freckles was about that whole “love the sinner, hate the sin” thing that so many Christians say about homosexuality.  He explains that this phrase is pretty much hogwash because people are unable to differentiate between the sin and the person sinning.  I was going to leave a comment that would have basically boiled down to ‘lighten up, dude…’, because I know many Christians who believe that homosexual behavior is wrong, and even some who believe that simply being gay is wrong, and they have only ever expressed their love for me… so despite the triteness of the phrase ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’, I think it is still a ideal to live up to.

But then I encountered this article about how the Vatican is probably going to bar gay people from entering their seminaries – regardless of whether or not they are celibate.  (If anyone leaves  comment about how gay priests are more likely to abuse than straight ones I swear I will rip you a new one – virtually at least… pedophilia is a mostly straight phenomenon)  And then there was this article about the girl who was kicked out of a Christian school because her parents were lesbians – not because she was gay, but her parents!  (Eric wrote about this in another blog entry.)  

I think I have just had a very fortunate experience in the church I attend and the Christians I am friends with… because bullshit like this just keeps happening… just not to me.  For some reason that is unknown to me, homosexuality is different from any other ‘sin’.  Would that school have kicked that girl out if her parents were straight but one (or both) of them had been married before?  Would they have asked for proof that their prior spouse committed adultery?  Is the Vatican going to bar straight men with high libidos from entering their seminaries?  Christians have no problem showing compassion and accepting alcoholics, or someone addicted to porn (but of course, it would have to be straight porn!), or any number of other sins.  But mention that you’re gay… you don’t even have to be in a relationship, you just have to be gay… and suddenly you’re a pariah.  For some reason, most Christians can’t separate the ‘sinner’ from the ‘sin’ here.  This crap has got to stop.

The other problem with the ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ philosophy – when applied to homosexuality – is that so many Christians see being gay as sin… so when they say “I love you, I just hate the sin”, what they end up saying is “I love you; I just hate this massive part of your identity.”  And if this gets internalized, it can lead to huge problems… as I’m sure many gay Christians have experienced, I know I did.  Trying not to hate myself when I was told I was supposed to hate this huge, core part of my identity… well, it was pretty much impossible.  I’m 30 years old, and I still struggle with not hating myself because of this.  

So… basically, I didn’t tell Eric to ‘lighten up’.  I still think that ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ is a nice ideal, but the way it is practiced – or rather, the way it is not practiced needs to change.

18 Comments:

random blog preacher said...

CGC.....There is an answer.

Do I have ears to hear? This is offered respectfully.

If you will honestly yield to the searching light of the Holy Spirit you will see the truth......this passage of scripture is where you are "stuck". You cannot go further with the Lord if you will not deal with what you know already in your heart to be true.
_ _ _

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
_ _ _

Straight, gay, sexual sin is sin. "I" must call it what it is. Well, ok if I can get there, it's dealing with truth. This is what it means to "confess". Own it, in other words. Name it, call it what it is.

The real issue, the "heart" of the matter, is rebellion against the Lordship of Jesus Christ. In this one area...I simply will not submit to His Lordship.

This is self-willed rebellion, plain and simple. If I will "confess" this, He is faithful and just to forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness. This is deliverance.

Isa. 50:2b
Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver?

I surrender all......do you know that song?

JJ said...

random blog preacher,

I don't know how much of my blog you have read, so I don't know how much to say to you here.

First of all, as far as 'sexual sin' is concerned, I am celibate. I am not having sex, and I have never come even remotely close to having sex (either with a man or a woman).

I am also not sure about what the Bible says about homosexuality... I mean, I know the verses (The Sodom and Gomorrah story, the Leviticus verses, the verses in the epistles of Paul), I'm just not sure of the correct interpretation of those verses... if you read more of my blog you will hear about some of the other interpretations I have come across of those verses.

I also do not think I am in willful rebellion by simply admitting what I am. I prayed and asked God to change me so many times, and for so many years, and He left me this way, so I am trying to figure out how He wants me to live.

This particular blog entry was about the hypocricy that the church has displayed toward gay people. They do not show us the same level of acceptance that they would show a heterosexual person who struggled with any number of temptations. I think this is something that needs to be addressed in the church.

Christinewjc said...

Hi JJ,

Thanks for your response at my blog. I am sorry that you found my post a bit difficult to 'digest' in one reading. I do hope that you will read it again and get more meaning from it.

I think that the idea that a church must "accept" a homosexual in their identity is the problem that you are having. Every other type of sin is not "accepted" by the church members, it is regarded as something to confess and overcome through the power of being born again through Jesus Christ. Relying on our "own power" can temporarily "work" for a time, but just like the "random blog preacher" stated, we must give it ALL to God and not hold back repentance for any sin.

You stated that you are not sure about the meaning/interpretation of the Bible passages that condemn homosexual behavior. I would like to pass along an excellent article that I had received in an email sent to me which discusses this very subject in a brief, but precise manner. Perhaps it might shed some light upon your confusion in this area. Following the article, are two comments that reiterate the point of the article.

*******

Here's the article:

Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.

SO...it must be okay, right?

Talking points from Mission America

Consider these facts:

He also never said anything about rape, incest or domestic violence. Are those things okay, too?


There are many teachings and deeds of Christ that are not included in the Gospel accounts, as John writes in John 21:25.


Christ did say that God created people “in the beginning” as male and female, and that marriage is the union of one man and one woman joined together as “one flesh.” (Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9) Nothing is said about any other type of union.


When He discussed sexual morality, Christ had a very high standard, clearly affirming long-standing Jewish law. He told the woman caught in adultery to “Go and sin no more.” (John 8:11) He warned people not only that the act of adultery was wrong, but even adulterous thoughts. (Matthew 5:28) And he shamed the woman at the well (John 4:18) by pointing out to her that he knew she was living with a man who was not her husband.


Christ used the destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of God’s wrath ( Matthew 10:15, Mark 6:11,Luke 10:12, and Luke 17:29). Throughout the Old Testament, prophets clearly described these cities as being notorious for the practice of homosexuality. (Genesis 18:20, Genesis 19:4-5, Isaiah 3:9, Jeremiah 23:14, Ezekiel 16:46-59). Jesus certainly knew that this was how the comparison would be understood.


Christ was God incarnate (in the flesh) here on earth. He was the long-expected Messiah, which was revealed in Matthew 16:13- 20, Matthew 17:5-9, Mark 8:27-30, Luke 4:16-30, Luke 9: 18-21,John 4:25-26, John 8:57-59 and elsewhere. As one with God, He was present from the beginning (John 1: 1-13; Colossians 1:15-17; Ephesians 3:9 and elsewhere). So, Jesus was part of the Godhead as the laws were handed down through Moses to Israel and eventually to the whole world. This Old Testament law clearly prohibited homosexuality (Genesis 19, Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13; Deuteronomy 23:18 and elsewhere). The apostles understood this also, as shown by Paul’s writing in Romans 1:24-27, Peter’s in 2 Peter 2:4-22, and John’s in Revelation 22:15.
So--the apostles, who were taught by Christ, clearly understood that homosexuality was a sin as it has always been. When people say, “Jesus said nothing about homosexuality,” they reveal that they really haven’t understood Scripture, or Who Christ is. Maybe some of these points can help them toward a clearer understanding.


---------------------------------

Post ID: 709 Posted by: pool6x, 2005-09-17 02:13:00

This was an excellent reply based upon the truth of the Bible. Christ is God, the Holy Spirit (God also) inspired the Bible's writing, So when God declared homosexuality an abomination in the Old Testament, it was in fact Christ (God) who was the one declaring that. So, Christ did say a lot about homosexuality...everytime God says it in the Bible, Christ (part of the Godhead) is dittoing it.

---------------------------------

Post ID: 716 Posted by: nitsuard, 2005-09-19 01:44:26

Excellent indeed! But I had a bad link to the original article and hope to read it b4 continuing my comments except to say that John 1 explains that Christ was GOD in the flesh and was the Creator who made everything, including every word written by man to be included in the Bible.

(End of article and comments)

*******

I think the Bible is pretty clear, don't you? I hear you when you say that the sin of homosexuality seems to be singled out more than any other type of sin. The problem isn't with homosexuality exclusively. You can replace that sin with any from the list, it simply doesn't matter. Sin is sin is sin! That is the key to this whole thing. However, the elusion to the days of Lot by Jesus Christ, and the delusion that is spreading in the world today are unmistakably linked to the homosexual lifestyle. Thus it is the issue that needs to be dealt with today.

As followers of and believers in Jesus Christ we must be compassionate and seek every opportunity to extend the Gospel to all sinners. Homosexuals do not need to be constantly reminded of their specific sins UNLESS they have been deceived into believing that type of behavior isn't a sin. They also need to know, rather, that their sins are forgiven through repentance of them and the shed blood of Jesus for them, should they want it and confess that Jesus is Lord.

JJ, my studying of the Bible has led me to believe that the sin of homosexual behavior has a huge significance in end times prophecy. This makes the issue more glaringly apparent (IMO) than other types of sins. Let me explain.

Have you ever wondered why Jesus said that the signs of the end times would be like "the days of Lot" and "the days of Noah"?

The Bible doesn't say much about Sodom, but what it does say is loud and clear (see Genesis Chapters 18 and 19). There are days worth of study in this passage. Why was Lot sitting at the gate? This signified his high position on the city council. Lot was tolerant of the rampant sin in the city. What an apt picture of our day and age. This is our first clue to why Jesus pointed out the days of Lot as a model for the time of His return. However the second, and most glaring, description of Sodom is that it was filled with the sin of homosexuality. The men of Sodom wanted the 'men' that had come to Lot's house. In fact, they wanted them so bad that they tried to break down the door to get them, and, according to their own words, they wanted them just to have sex with them. They would not even accept the offer of Lot's daughters. Nope. They burned in lust for the men that had come to town.

So where does that leave us today? Jesus likened the days of his return unto the days of Lot. What do we know about the days of Lot other than the rampant homosexuality that marked it? Isn't it odd that we do not know much more about it? I do not think so. In fact, I believe that it is exactly what Jesus was referring to.


For those who are watching the skies and looking for Christ's return, this impending flood is inching oh so much closer. The great rescuing of the Church is surely nigh. Keep the faith saints, and do not bend on the essentials of the faith. The degree of sin being displayed may be perceived as worse than any other, but it is still just sin. We were all guilty before we received the grace of God. Don't forget that God dearly loves the sinner and does not have any joy in the death of the wicked. He loves the homosexual just as much as any other, so much that he sent his Son to die for them too

Remember JJ, our hope rests ENTIRELY in the hope of mercy and grace after repentance of sin and the acceptance of Jesus Christ's sacrificial death on the cross. He then enters into the heart of the believer and takes over as Lord and Savior of their life.

I Corinthians 6:11 (NKJV) - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Christinewjc said...

JJ stated:

"First of all, as far as 'sexual sin' is concerned, I am celibate. I am not having sex, and I have never come even remotely close to having sex (either with a man or a woman). "

I'm sorry if I sound ignorant for asking this, but if you have never had sex with a woman how do you know that you wouldn't be happy being with a woman sexually?

random blog preacher said...

CGC....You're fast, checked back and see that you posted a reply so thought I'd respond as best as I can. Hope it will help.

God has made his position clear from the start as to his intent for the sexuality of his creation. It cannot really be debated, but that doesn't stop anybody with an agenda. So be it.

Matt. 19:4-5 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

As Jesus stated here, marriage, between a man and a woman, was instituted by God from the beginning (Gen 2:23-25). He has never changed this. Any sexual activity outside of marriage is sin in the eyes of God. That's how it is and the bible is very clear, whether people will accept it or not. Now if I'm not actively engaged in homosexual behavior (or unmarried heterosexual sexual activity, for that matter), but still 'lusting in my heart'....this is then the 'sin' that needs to be confessed. Honesty is needed here as to what 'love' really is, as many will claim 'love', not lust.....

Matt. 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

These are still sins of the flesh, to be confessed. Lord, I am guilty of lusting in my heart.....forgive me for I am lustful (that's confessing).....and please remove that from me and fill me with your Spirit.

How to live is the question that you asked. Paul was also stuck, unable to get out of the bondage of the flesh. He spoke of the struggle in Romans 7

Rom. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The answer is true surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in every area of my life, and I must realize that God has one purpose which is to conform me to the image of his son (Rom. 8:28-29). This is what it means to be a christian. The Holy Spirit will do the work in me, as a yielded vessel, to sanctify me, to make me holy in all areas, not just any specific thing. He will be Lord of all or he is not Lord at all.

I must though, with my mouth 'confess' him as Lord (Rom. 10:9)...and mean it. When he is my 'Lord', sin can no longer have dominion over me, because now he does. This is the message of Romans 8. No longer a slave to the whims of my flesh, but now by the power of the Holy Spirit I have been, and am continuing to be, set free from everything that is of the flesh. Do I really want that? We like some of those things, but they must go.

Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Paul also dealt with this in Galatians
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. This is the answer. How? True and complete surrender and confession and asking him to fill you with his Spirit (Luke 11: 9-13). Ask, ask, ask.

Jesus said "Deny youself, take up your cross, and follow me." The cross is not my 'hard circumstances' but is for the putting to death of self and the flesh. This is to be a christian.


Surrendering all to Jesus..... it's "signing a blank check"

one last thought....

1 Cor. 14:33a For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace....

JJ said...

christinewjc,
I think I will answer the easier question first.

I'm sorry if I sound ignorant for asking this, but if you have never had sex with a woman how do you know that you wouldn't be happy being with a woman sexually?
First of all, I should point out that I am a woman. You're not the first person to make that mistake, but I have mentioned the fact that I am female several times before.

Secondly, I think what you are basically asking is how can I know who I would or would not want to have sex with if I haven't had sex at all. I would ask you, as a Christian, if you would want people to experiment to 'figure out' what gender they prefer? It's kind of ridiculous if you think about it. You are straight (I presume)... did you have to have sex with a man before you knew for sure? Did you try sex with a woman before you figured out you wouldn't like it? Sexual orientation is fairly innate (and I'm not talking about being born gay or not -- I mean, people who are straight know that they are straight, it's inside them... they don't need experience to tell them that... it's the same for gay people)

My second comment will be in response to your using to story of Sodom and Gomorrah as a basis for your main argument. I guess I just disagree with you. I had no idea until I started doing this reading that people actually seriously used this passage to condemn homosexuality. It doesn't make sense to me. And the Bible does not really back it up. When other passages refer to the 'sin of Sodom', they refer to not helping the poor, etc... Even the one verse that references 'sexual perversion' (Jude 7), does not say anything about homosexuality. And I know you probably think of homosexual behavior as perversion... but I would put forth that it is the act of gang rape (whether or not it is gay or straight) that was the perversion. Do you think God would have been okay with the violent act of gang rape if the angels had appeared as women? I simply cannot conceive that there was a city where every single male (as the Bible says) was gay... I can more easily believe (just based on common sense) that they wished to exert their dominance over the visitors, and the most blatant way to do that was to rape them. This is actually a fairly widely known phenomenon in ancient Mediteranean cultures, and it has nothing to do with homosexuality. It is more akin to the gang-rapes that occur in prison... they are committed by straight men trying to prove that they are the dominant group.

I personally have never used the "Jesus never mentioned homosexuality therefore it must be okay" arguement, specifically for the reason that there are a lot of things that Jesus probably never mentioned, and it would be ridiculous to make a rule based on the absence of any mention of it. Also, the fact is we don't know everything Jesus said... at the end of John it says that Jesus said many more things... so it is possible that homosexuality came up... we don't know.

When I say that I am wondering about the interpretation of Scripture, I am mainly talking about the references in Paul's letters, and if you are interested I would recommend the book "The Children are Free: Re-examining the Biblical Evidence on Homosexuality" -- I have a post on it if you want to read that first... or instead... it's Post # 10. I don't go into great detail, but you might be able to get the gist of it.

I would also like to say that while 'sin is sin is sin', the church does not behave this way. I have not had sex with a woman (or a man), and yet I would be condemned by many in the church faster than someone living in a common-law heterosexual relationship, or a divorced person re-marrying (something Jesus did mention).

I have sacrificed this part of me to God, many times. I have begged and pleaded with Him to change me, I went for prayer, therapy and counselling and yet here I am... still gay. What else can I do but ask questions? Figure out what God wants from my life... is it celibacy? Or has the church been wrong about homosexuality? We've been wrong before.

JJ said...

random blog preacher

I just want to say that, yes, I struggle with lust the same as any heterosexual woman would. But it is not the dominant problem in my life, any more than it would be fore a heterosexual woman. I become attracted to women, and I have fallen in love with women. My experience in that area is not very different from that of my straight, single, female friends. It's just that if I chose celibacy, then I cannot hope for more.

And I just want to say to you and Christinewjc "Welcome"... I just realized I was being very argumentative, and I don't mean to be. It's hard to convey tone here. But I don't want anyone (well, anyone who isn't spouting hate rhetoric) to feel unwelcome here. I also wanted to encourage you both to read more of my blog. A lot of what you are saying I've already addressed, and I think you might know more of where I am coming from if you did.

Willie Hewes said...

Hi JJ, thanks for commenting on my blog. I'm not sure if 'Repentant Gays' is a good term, but 'Ex-Gay' is clearly wrong, and I just don't know what else to call it. :/

This blog entry is right on tyhe mark, by the way. It's hard to understand why people are so worried about 'the homosexual lifestyle' when most of the people doing the things they seem most worried about (going to the clubs, anonymous sex, drugs, immature, self-destructive behaviour) are straight.

The commentators on your blog are well-spoken and obviously well-versed in biblical evidence, even if it doesn't always seem to the point (Sodom and Gomorra was not destroyed because the entire city was gay.)

Like you, I am confused as to why being gay, that is, being attracted to people of the same gender rather than the other gender, is supposed to be a sin, and why 'homosexuality' is supposed to be a graver sin than all the others, even other sexual sin.

Answers on a postcard, people.

Anonymous said...

CGC...

I wonder whether the reason some people do not differentiate between the so called "sinner" and "sin" is twofold, but it ends up boinling down to one: "culture war".

The conservative understanding of christian doctrine has a problem with homosexual identity. It can't understand that one may feel homosexual attractions no matter how much one prays, or submits oneself to a higher power.

So, CGC, I'm afraid that for most people that hold homosexuality as sin, your very existence threatens their understanding of the world.

See, if you indeed are who you say you are, and feel the way you say you feel, and have sincerely asked to be delivered from those feelings, (and I have no reason not to believe you), your very existence begs the question of why homosexual desire & and relationships should be considered sinful. Conservative christian doctrine can't explain why you haven't been delivered from your "gayness", so to speak. For those who hold it, either you've done something wrong (that is, unless all homosexuals actually were meant to be suffer like Job).

And seems to be now the heart of the debate, isn't it?

Anonymous said...

Wow, I believe the ideal that Christians can live up to the expectations of "love the person - hate the sin" as you have described is, for the most part, an insurmountable task. You see, my curious one, the issue is the heart, yes it is a heart issue.
The nature of the heart of people has a long way to go (generations even) to accept a person for who he/she is and hate the "sin" of unacceptable behavior. Today, homosexuality, is acceptable behavior in America, don't you think. Nevertheless, some countries find this behavior destructive to the family structure as well as the socio-political intrastructure. In other words, any citizen in this type of country can #!%@%&_*&&* you up for exhibiting open homosexual behavior.

The question of homosexuality can be pin-pointed to ones bitterness, or ones greediness, or ones neediness (these are basic attributes particularly for women who prefer and encourage lesbian behavior). Also for men, it is ones lust, and ones perversion.
Do you think this would be a better society if homosexuality was the highly accepted culture? Close your eyes, take a moment before you answer ... my guess is that you concluded affirmatively to this ideal.
Historical societies depict a culture that accepted was homosexuality as an approved and encouraged behavior. There are still today war crimes towards people that have yet to be disclosed concerning the empire Alexander the Great and his 'Calvary'. This is a topic scholars in public schools cannot address without policy penalties. But this would be a good assignment for you to investigate, because 'hind-sight helps your fore-sight'. Your understanding where 'homosexuality' has been will help you know where it is going.
Jahdrum7

JJ said...

anonymous

"The question of homosexuality can be pin-pointed to ones bitterness, or ones greediness, or ones neediness (these are basic attributes particularly for women who prefer and encourage lesbian behavior). Also for men, it is ones lust, and ones perversion."

I have no idea what to say to this comment, because this is a fairly ridiculous assertion. Lesbians are not bitter and needy (any more than straight women), and gay men are not lustful and perverse (any more than straight men). And, honestly, it is fairly hateful to insist that they are.

"Do you think this would be a better society if homosexuality was the highly accepted culture?"

I'm not sure what you are asking here -- do I think it would be better if most people were gay? Is that what you are asking? I have no problem with straight people. I don't mind that most people are straight, that is a fact, and it makes sense, because if most people were gay, procreation would be a lot more complicated, don't you think? I just think that in any society that wants to call itself enlightened, the 'majority' has to be careful not to treat the 'minority' like crap.

I have to say, your comment makes little or no sense to me, sorry.

Morgaine said...

I'm so sorry that you feel conflicted. I'm not Christian, but I have read the Bible and read about the Bible and I don't believe it condemns homosexuality. The destruction of Sodom and Gammorrah(sp?) has a little twist no one ever discusses. Lot was delivered because he offered to let the rabble at his door asking about the travelers gang rape his two virgin daughters. I have serious problems with the idea of a man being rewarded for offering up his daughters, and I think that reflects on the reliability of the entire passage.

Have you read the articles on the Bible and Homosexuality at Religious Tolerance.org? Most of the passages used to justify oppression of gays are gross mistranslations. I guess that won't help if you adhere to the KJV, but I hope you'll read those pages. There's a great discussion of the various translations here that might interest you. Neither Hebrew nor Greek had a word for homosexual, because the concept was not discouraged until much later. The word "sin" was not used until 900 c.e.

My opinions on the matter would probably seem very extreme to you, so I won't go into that here. I do hope you read those links, though, and maybe you'll find some information to use in your debates.

Gaunilo said...

JJ,

Found you via the carnival. I just wanted to give a voice of support, particularly as one has recently been involved in a bit of controversy over my opinions on homosexuality. The great ostracizing of homosexuals from the church is, in my opinion, one of the great sins of the contemporary church. While I'll concede some validity to the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' rubric, in practice it tends to reduce to mere semantics. The 'loving' of the sinner precisely is hating the sin...or perhaps, more accurately, the hating of the sinner. This is particularly the case in that homosexuality (like heterosexuality) is a constitutive part of one's personhood. How then is it possible to separate the 'sin' and the 'sinner' in this case? I don't think it's possible, and I believe this accounts for much of the church's hatred of the homosexual.

This is a great, great failure on the part of the church. The misreading of Scripture if fundamental, and it has far-reaching consequences.

Contemplative Activist said...

I'm a bit late in coming - just found your blog via the carnival but thought I'd add a voice of support.

There was a time when the church was terribly terribly wrong about racism and slavery. And when it comes to sexual orientation, I believe the church is tragically wrong again.

CA

Anonymous said...

One of the things that I noticed when reading this blog entry was the confusion between "being gay" and having homosexual temptations. They are not the same.

Everyone has temptations. Mine may be smoking. Yours may be wanting to hurt people. Hers may be homosexual temptations. Temptations are temptations and they are a part of life and they themselves are not sin. To "be gay" is no longer about temptations, but it's about one's desire to embrace the temptation and accept it as a viable part of one's life.

It is confusing in this day and age with everyone saying it's biological, it's mental, or whatever. The truth is, it's just another form of temptation and everyone's got something. Why does the "American Christian Church" freak out about such a temptation? Maybe partly because it's being embraced by the world as programmed into us biologically, or whatever, and trying to get us to believe that it's just fine. But really, I think they freak out because they don't have their heads on straight.

The truth is that we'll have to fight against temptation for the rest of our stinking lives and if any straight person thinks they're better than someone who has homosexual temptations, then they ain't no friend of Christ's. Hmm. Think Pharisees.

ross marshall said...

Hey, I just left these comments on
http://4simpsons.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/problems-with-pro-gay-theology-2-of-4/#comment-16704
for all to read... what do ya think?
Ross, on November 6th, 2007 at 2:58 am Said:

turrets syndrome:
hey, I have a typology to present.
NO one can pin point the cause(s) of gay-ness, yet Biblicists keep on judging gay people WITHOUT any helpful cures; most gays are just Banned from the church, or Opressed; and surely have NO place in the church, no hope of membership, no hope of getting anywhere in the ministry….. and sense GOD does not cure the Gay person, and sense OBSTANING does more harm than good; what is the gay christian to do? Sit on the back chairs in the church as a symbol of a cursed abomination, for all else to snear at?
Ok, what about the turrets syndrome victom? One of the symptoms is four cursing language. What about God’s request that we have no foul language come out of our mouth??? Thats a SIN?
turrets syndrome IS A Medical desease.
maybe gaynes is too?
maybe STRAIGHTness and all the justified fornmication going on is too!
maybe all the filthy money made by the church is too!
Why so much HATE towards gay people?
maybe they cannot help it no more than those with turrets syndrome.
Should we take ALL medical problems that have traditional SIn involved, and STONE them to death???/
If you all cannot find a CURE for Gay-ness, then I suggest shut your mouths - ye hypocrits.
ROSS
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Ross, on November 6th, 2007 at 3:01 am Said:

ooops… I meant TYPEOLOGY….
Homosexuality is = to turrets syndrome
acts of sin is = to verbal sinning

hey, maybe IF we all translate “SIN” = “imperfection”, and de-personalize it, we can all get away from judging each other.
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Ross, on November 6th, 2007 at 3:15 am Said:

QUOTE:
When people take God’s commands (and/or His Holy Word) and twist it to accomodate their own desires and needs (such as the current gay christian movement) then they are guilty of introducing heresy into the faith. We are warned about this in the book of Jude. In the last days:…..

OK, lets talk about twisting scriptures: yes, we may be guilty, but not as bad as 400 years of KJV mistranslations:
greek “eon” and “eonian” does not translate to “eternal”, eternity, ever, forever, or everlasting. greek = AGE-LASTING. Hell ( hades) is NOT eternal, and even the KJV shows us that God REMOVES all the folks out of hades-hell, those who have the Mark of the Beast, then takes ‘death and hades’ and tosses them into the Lake of fire, and THIS is the second death, where He obolishes death and hades. So, everyone is removed first???? yes. So, where is your ETERNAL BURNING HELL for gays, and etc??? yea, lets talk about TWISTING scriptures. lets talk about the Chruches OUR RIGHT violation os that LAST verse in Revelations that WARNS against ADDINg or SUBTRACTING words: How about Adding and removing words from revelation” Does God have as much against Gays as He obviously does with you folk, who SWALLOW the camel of the KJV perversiopn? Listen to this ADDing and SUBtracting: And the Lake is supposedly to burn “for ever and ever”.
Greek says: “for THE eons of THE eons”.
OK, so Rome / Jerome and Miss protestants foster the KJV on us, and have us believe this:
Change “FOR THE’ to “FOR, then change “OF THE” to “AND”, and we have the perversion “for ever AND ever.” There is NO “and” in this verse in greek. The EONS are NOUNS and not adjectives…
So, who gets cursed with plagues first, the Fag or the ADDer and SUBtractor?
So, the gay is a Sinner; OK
So, the KJV is a SIN too…
It would be easier to CORRECT the BIBLE’s translation by burning all the KJV’s than to CURE gays.
yet, The Chruch Rather get us ALl off on persecuting the Gay to Stand corrected WHEN he cannot; while the very thing we SHOULD correct keeps on being used as a TEXT to have infallible faith in…
GIVE ME A BREAK!!! Hypocrits!
Blind Leading the Blind!!!

ROSS
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Ross, on November 6th, 2007 at 3:31 am Said:

If you KJV’ers who like to Shove 5-point Calvanistic Satanism on us, using the KJV-Only crude, then I am ready to argue!
I would rather be a sinner and a gay and teach the real truth as in the original Greek, than to be a so-called straight, who blindly teaches 400 years or more of foul hatred, judgement, and mis-represting God’s Nature and Destiny for man. I would rather teach the truth of the greek and UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATIOn of ALL mankind, than to promote that the word ”ALL” does not mean ‘ALL’; that the greek word “eon” means eternal, rather than gr. “age-lasting”; that hades lasts for eternity, rather than see it destroyed in the Lake of Fire - an obvious blunder on the part of stupid dogmatists! And the list goes on for 100’s of pages!
So, lets say EVERYTHING IS A SIN: And some sins are wiorse than others. Lets count up verses by God warning us; and maybe we find a small handful about sodomy, gayness, gay love, etc, v. the 100’s against FALSE TEACHINGS, LIARS, WOLVES in sheeps clothing, devils who parade around as preschers of the truth, con men and those who sell Christ for a BUCK in book stores! We might find, in the last days, that a GAY has more right to being a faithful steward of the Word, that those who are faithful steward’s of the Anti-Gay Word persecution….
I am not saying Gay is right, or God is gay, but I will say that YOU all are part of a 1500 year old movement who cares NOTHING about what the greek truth of God really says. Liars, cheats, cons, dumb-mules, blind bats!…
KJV’ers knopw NOTHING of Greek “tense” forms…. where we see present things made future, future things made present or past, … and the list is huge!!!!!!! 400 years of protestant translation perversions, on TOP of Romanism’s 1500 years of Latin perversions!!!! … and you all want US to run after a small minority of poor sexually identity crisis victoms, and be BLIND to 2000 years of BAD translations!!!! ???? Who the rotten SINNER? Now?

ROSS
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Ross, on November 6th, 2007 at 3:53 am Said:

Hmmm?
God tells us in the 10 Commandments: Thou shalt not kill (murder).
OK, what about God telling Israel to go into canaan and butcher every man, woman and child, and burn and destroy all the gold and silver, etc…. ( ? somewhere in scripture?? I forgot.) So, don’t KILL unless God tells us to? OK, so lets build STANDING ARMIES and go to the Middle East and force Towel heads to hate us, when before they did not? Then we christians blame them and then kill them, and have the Jews justify it for us….
One thing to remember, all the Lev Laws were given to Israel ONLY! Not us gentiles! Ha, ha, Ha,. ( If ya want to swallow this Jew v. Gentile crude too.)
hey what about Old Test people claiming things and givening God credit for things he takes no credit for, where we see that poor fool save the ”Arc” of the Covenant ( the big communication capacitor) from falling over, and we see the stupid interpreters make it God who strikes the poor fool dead, when it’s obviously the High Voltage that kills the poor idiot. i would have given him credit for trying to help.
Ya know, maybe it was the Devil Satan who struck him dead? After all, was it God or Satan who forced That CENSUS to be taken on Israel? Kings v. Chronicles.

thinkforyourself said...

I really wish that people would think for themselves a bit more instead of holding a prejudice because someone else or something told them to. Babies don't discriminate against homosexuals and children only learn to do so through the corruption of 'sheep like adults' LOVE is LOVE and cannot be wrong. If two people consensually enter a relationship and want to express their love for one another, it is not up to another person to 'throw cold water' on that. Heterosexual privelege has kept 'gay' people marginalised and in some cases criminalised for long enough. Slavery has been abolished now...come on guys and gals, keep up...'cave mentality' is out and acceptance is in. There is no finer LOVE than UNCONDITIONAL LOVE and to say that one person's type of love is inferior to another person's type of love is judgemental. To say that 'gay' people can be 'gay' but not practice it, is patronising and to behave as if 'gay' people need the permission from hetero people is damaging and insulting...take the 'biblical plank' out of your own eyes and leave gay people to live their lives in peace. I am with the very first post on this subject. If God made us gay and we asked him (in our internalised homophobia to change us) and he didn't then, either God doesn't want us to change and loves us as we are or he doesn't exist...I suppose somebody will say that 'gay' people are being awkward about this or mistaken or whatever..Please ask yourself if heterosexuality was natural to you but you found yourself marginalised because others didn't like it/agree with it, how would you feel? Isolated, disqualified,guilty, rejected, suicidal, judged...welcome to our world!

Anonymous said...

ok first hate the sin love the sinner is an ideal not specifically found in the bible...rather the bible says not to judge and love everyone for it is god's place to judge NOT US...jesus was a man but yet god so was able to judge on those around him because he was perfect...we are not god and are not allowed to judge others....so one can interpret the saying "hate the sin, love the sinner" as being taught in the bible but it is not directly said.....also all those who say christians and how they act make them question our religion...for those people...wake up...were people too!!! we sin we do wrong christians aren't perfect but we should live as close to the bible as we can...you think christians are wrong accept jesus christ and live perfectly to the bible....i'd love to see you do it...wait you can't because it's not possible! don't pass judgement either you hypocrits!! christianity is the one true religion i believe that is perfect...people are not what make it that way, god is.....if your gonna accuse christians and call us wrong and hypocrits....you better do your research and truely understand what you're talking about before you talk about it!!

im open with this as well, anyone wanna comment me email me

mrsexybiker@aol.com

(it's old i've had it a while)